Форумът на Thorn

От суплемента:

Thracian Hallstatt (Thraco-Cimmerian) culture (Фракійський Гальштат)
(Archaeology, text – I. Bruyako)
The Thraco-Cimmerian culture still does not have the status of a distinct archaeological culture in
historiography. It was described in 1920–1930 based on horse ammunition items from hoards
belonging to the late Urnfield and early Hallstatt period in Central and Eastern Europe. The Kartal
III burial ground is the only complete monument of Thracian-Cimmerian culture to date. (140)
Kartal (Картал)
The Kartal settlement is a multi-layered archaeological site, located on the left bank of the Lower
Danube, 1.5 km east of the village Orlovka. For this study, the materials from the burial ground of
the third cultural horizon (Kartal III) were used. This horizon dates to the Middle Hallstatt period
around 9th to 8th c. BCE. A total of 530 graves were excavated (about half of the entire cemetery).
The features of the artefacts and the burial rite indicate that Kartal III belongs to the ThracianCimmerian culture. The population of the settlement consisted of two main ethnocultural
components – Thracian and Iranian. Possibly, they represented the tribal world of the Western
(South-Western) Balkans (Illyrians, Paeonians, Dardanians), as well as the local people as a relic
of the Indo-Aryan Late Bronze Age community (Zrubna-Sabatynivska and Bilozerska cultures).
(141)
Location: 45.319997 N 28.411989 E. Orlivka village, Izmail district, Odesa region.
Excavations: 2005, 2007, 2008.
Excavation authors: Igor Bruyako, South Ukrainian K. D. Ushinsky National Pedagogical
University State Institution, Odesa.
Storage of anthropological materials: Odesa Archaeological Museum.
Description of samples:
Seven samples were taken for aDNA analysis, DNA was successfully extracted from six.

Кухулин 2.0 написа: ↑03 Авг 2025, 21:44 Исторически тия "черняховски траки" ще да са някакви даки или гети. Осми век пне около делтата на Дунава.

Най-вероятно..

Това с черняховците е половин беда. Ако някой ги е интегрирал в базата, може да напише как се отнасят тези даки към българите...

Кухулин 2.0 написа: ↑04 Авг 2025, 06:28 Това с черняховците е половин беда. Ако някой ги е интегрирал в базата, може да напише как се отнасят тези даки към българите...

Успешно са секвенирани 6 проби. Намирам Г25 координати на 4 от тях. В МТА могат да се заредят 5 проби. Ще дам каквато информация намирам за всяка проба в отделен пост за прегледност. Нещо като IBD-то на МТА ще го вадя само за проби с поне 10 сМ общи снипове. В Г25 навсякъде дистанциите са до съвременни популации.

Като изключим UKR000, която излиза подозрително славяноподобна за този период, останалите са най-близо до съвременните средиземноморски народи – Италия, Испания, Гърция. Някои от пробите изглеждат подобни на етруските.

Със съвременните българи единствената връзка, която виждам от Г25, е известна близост на UKR002 с торбеши и помаци и на UKR007 с торбеши.

UKR000

UKR000. Kartal, burial 132. The burial pit was not traced. The skull stood at a depth of 60 cm. The skeleton lay in a crouched position on its right side, with the head oriented to the south. The arms were bent at the elbows. Behind the head there was a lower jaw of small cattle. Opposite the front part of the skull there was a small black-clay jug. Chronology according to archaeology: 9th to 8th c. BCE. Chronology according to 14C dating: 900–798 cal BCE (2676±30 BP).

Координати в Г25:
Ukrainian:UKR000,0.113823,0.118817,0.076933,0.085595,0.043393,0.025658,0.00047,0.008307,0.003477,-0.021868,0.002273,-0.003897,0.00669,0.015414,-0.009908,0.004508,0.000522,0.011149,0.010433,0.012006,0.004118,-0.002349,-0.004683,-0.011447,-0.001437

UKR001

Пол: Жена
mtDNA: K1a

UKR001. Kartal, burial 124. The shape of the pit was close to rectangular. The depth of the contours of the pit was 75 cm, the size 210x110x15 cm. The skeleton was fragmented, the position crouched, on the right side, head oriented to the south. In front of the skull there was a black-clay cup-shaped vessel. Chronology according to archaeology: 9th to 8th c. BCE

Координати в Г25:
Ukrainian:UKR001,0.108132,0.149283,0.012445,-0.032623,0.029236,-0.014781,-0.00235,0.003923,0.015135,0.036629,-0.001137,0.002997,-0.015907,0.004404,-0.018458,-0.010607,-0.007432,0.001267,0.012696,-0.014632,-0.006988,0.010881,-0.000493,0.003856,-0.011735

MTA

Съвременни популации:
1. North_Italian (9.624)
2. Spanish_Andalucia (10.86)
3. Tuscan (12.40)
4. Spanish_Valencia (12.70)
5. Spanish_Murcia (12.75)
6. Spanish_Extremadura (13.23)
7. Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha (13.91)
8. Portuguese (14.31)
Древни популации:
Achaean + Dacian (4.619)
Dacian + Macedonian (5.508)
Macedonian (5.592)
Samnite + Dacian (5.891)
Samnite + Macedonian (5.918)
Achaean + Macedonian (6.046)
Achaean (6.786)
Samnite (7.265)
Dacian (8.445)
Corinthian (9.292)

Общи снипове:

R11877m, Dark Ages Hassleben Thuringia Germany, 700 AD
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 53)
2 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 33.9 cM
Largest chain: 216 SNPs / 22.79 cM

R11780, Phoenician Era Kerkouane Tunisia, 550 BC
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 64)
1 SNP chain (min. 60 SNPs) / 11.68 cM
Largest chain: 192 SNPs / 11.68 cM

AID009, Mycenaean Aidonia Corinthia, 1500 BC
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 6)
2 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 10.07 cM
Largest chain: 111 SNPs / 7.39 cM

R120, Carthago-Roman San Ercolano, 500 AD
mtDNA: I1cY-DNA: T-L446
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 35)
1 SNP chain (min. 60 SNPs) / 18.05 cM
Largest chain: 110 SNPs / 18.05 cM

COL_098x, Lombard Era Collegno Northern Italy, 580 AD
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 32)
1 SNP chain (min. 60 SNPs) / 17.41 cM
Largest chain: 104 SNPs / 17.41 cM

UKR002

Пол: Мъж
mtDNA: U5b1a
Y-DNA: C1a2b (Z38888) ISOGG 2020

UKR002. Kartal, burial 19. The rectangular pit with strongly rounded corners was oriented along the NNW-SSE line. The contour of the pit was at the level of 80 cm. The length of the pit was 215–217 cm, the width in the middle 110 cm, the depth 25–30 cm. The skeleton lay in a crouched position on the right side, head oriented to SSE. The arm bones were bent at the elbows, the right hand was brought under the skull. There was a black polished goblet near the left hand, with its neck facing the front of the skull. Under the goblet an iron knife with a curved back and a straight blade lay. Chronology according to archaeology: 9th to 8th c. BCE.

Координати в Г25:
Ukrainian:UKR002,0.120652,0.140143,0.018479,-0.011628,0.028621,-0.012271,0.00893,0.006231,0.002045,0.020957,0.003735,0.008393,-0.010852,0.005367,-0.002307,-0.00769,-0.001956,-0.003421,0.018603,-0.001,-0.006114,0.00272,-0.000739,-0.001928,-0.004191

MTA

Съвременни популации:
1. Portuguese (9.063)
2. Spanish_Galicia (9.556)
3. Spanish_Cataluna (9.953)
4. Spanish_Murcia (10.36)
5. Spanish_Extremadura (10.42)
6. North_Italian (10.75)
7. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (10.95)
8. Spanish_Valencia (12.88)
Древни популации:
Illyrian (3.127)
Daunii + Illyrian (4.431)
Daunii + Pannonian (5.888)
Daunii + Scordisci (5.905)
Pannonian (6.38)
Daunii (8.317)
Scordisci (8.348)
Daunii + Etruscan (8.858)
Etruscan (10.28)


Общи снипове:

PN44, Piceni Italic Tribe Novilara Iron Age Adriatic Coast Italy, 650 BC
mtDNA: N1a1a1
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 16)
4 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 32.8 cM
Largest chain: 169 SNPs / 16.47 cM

ORD014, Daunian Herdonia Apulian Foggia Italy, 500 BC
mtDNA: I5a2+16086C
Y-DNA: J2b2a1 (L283)
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 8)
5 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 38.09 cM
Largest chain: 159 SNPs / 9.63 cM

2069, Dark Ages Italy South Tyrol Malles Burgusio Santo Stefano, 450 AD
mtDNA: I2
Y-DNA: E1b1b1 (M35.1/PF1944.1)
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 15)
3 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 14.88 cM
Largest chain: 126 SNPs / 6.0 cM

MOK10, Early Bronze Age Mokrin Necropolis Serbia, 1950 BC
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 47)
1 SNP chain (min. 60 SNPs) / 11.88 cM
Largest chain: 110 SNPs / 11.88 cM

I15515, Late Roman Empire Viminacium Serbia Pirivoj Necropolis, 225 AD
mtDNA: K1a3a
Y-DNA: R1b1a1b1b (CTS1078/Z2103)
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 3)
1 SNP chain (min. 60 SNPs) / 17.74 cM
Largest chain: 110 SNPs / 17.74 cM

UKR005

Пол: Мъж
mtDNA: T2
Y-DNA: ?

UKR005. Kartal, burial 103. The pit has the shape of a wide rectangle with rounded corners, oriented along the N-S line. At a depth of 25–30 cm a human skull was found. Further, the contours of the burial pit were fully revealed. The size of the pit was 1.7 x 1.15–1.2 m, the depth 45 cm. The skeleton lay on the back. The legs were bent at the knees, arms at the elbows. The hands were crossed on the chest. Body orientation to SSE. Near the skull there was a moulded rhyton-shaped vessel. A bronze item was found under the lower thoracic vertebrae – the tip of a belt in the form of an elongated conical cylinder. On the chest lay a fragment of a polished bowl, decorated with flutes along the edge and inner surface. Chronology according to archaeology: 9th to 8th c. BCE.


MTA

Съвременни популации:
1. Spanish_Andalucia (20.17)
2. Southwest_French (20.73)
3. Spanish_Valencia (21.79)
4. Spanish_Castilla_La_Mancha (22.29)
5. Spanish_Cantabria (22.35)
6. Spanish_Aragon (22.76)
7. North_Italian (23.11)
8. Spanish_Extremadura (23.84)
Древни популации:
Cenomani + Sequani (14.3)
Sequani (14.42)
Cenomani + Daunii (14.99)
Gallo-Roman + Sequani (15.32)
Daunii + Sequani (15.35)
Cenomani + Etruscan (15.57)
Cenomani (17.34)
Daunii (17.92)
Etruscan (18.72)
Gallo-Roman (19.55)


Няма да пускам данните за общи снипове на тази проба, защото излизат някакви подозрително големи трицифрени стойности. Не знам дали пробата не е замърсена или пък алгоритъмът на МТА нещо не е сработил.

UKR006

Пол: Жена
mtDNA: U5a1h

UKR006. Kartal, burial 109. The contour of a very large pit had the shape of a rectangle and was found at a depth of 100–110 cm. Orientation on the SE-NW line. The size of the pit was 260x120–130 cm, depth up to 30 cm. At the centre of the pit’s bottom, a trough-like depression was clearly visible, in which the skeleton was located. The skeleton was poorly preserved. The skull was crushed, the bones of the limbs were not completely preserved. The skeleton was in a crouched position and lay on the right side, with the head oriented to SSE. In front of the skull there was a low black-clay vessel (bowl) and a bronze fibula. Very small (1–1.5 mm) white beads were found around the 4th to 5th cervical vertebrae. Between the left shoulder and the back of the skull there was a small bronze plaque with a loop on the back. Chronology according to archaeology: 9th to 8th c. BCE.


MTA

Съвременни популации:
1. Spanish_Galicia (16.46)
2. Portuguese (17.46)
3. French (18.39)
4. Spanish_Cataluna (19.31)
5. Spanish_Extremadura (19.45)
6. Spanish_Murcia (19.86)
7. West_German (20.39)
8. Flemish (20.53)
Древни популации:
Illyrian (15.46)
Pannonian (15.97)
Scordisci (16.61)
Marcomanni (17.0)
Daunii (18.1)

Положението с общите снипове е същото като с предишната проба.

UKR007

Пол: Мъж
mtDNA: T1a1
Y-DNA: E1b1b1a1b1 (L618) ISOGG 2020


UKR007. Kartal, burial 126. The burial pit has not been traced. The skeleton lay at a depth of 60–75(80) cm. The skeleton was in a crouched position and lay on the right side, with the head oriented to SSE. The arms were bent at the elbows, the hands directed to the chin. The artefacts consisted of a small black-clay vessel located near the skull. Chronology according to archaeology: 9th to 8th c. BCE. Chronology according to 14C dating 996–831 cal BCE (2767±29 BP).


Координати в Г25:
Ukrainian:UKR007,0.124067,0.145221,0.021873,-0.027778,0.033852,-0.010319,-0.006345,-0.004615,0.014726,0.034443,0.001137,0.001349,-0.017393,-0.004679,-0.019544,0.004773,0.0339,-0.006208,0.003897,-0.008879,-0.007112,-0.010263,0.006902,0.000964,-0.005628

МТА

Съвременни популации
1. Spanish_Murcia (9.458)
2. Spanish_Valencia (10.22)
3. Spanish_Andalucia (10.40)
4. Spanish_Extremadura (10.49)
5. Portuguese (10.63)
6. Spanish_Cataluna (10.69)
7. Spanish_Castilla_Y_Leon (11.04)
8. Spanish_Aragon (11.13)
Древни популации:
Cenomani + Etruscan (6.5)
Illyrian (7.658)
Cenomani + Daunii (7.827)
Daunii (8.078)
Cenomani + Illyrian (8.19)
Cenomani (8.448)
Etruscan (8.59)
Cenomani + Gallo-Roman (8.762)
Gallo-Roman (11.77)


Общи снипове:

I26742, Illyrian Jazinka Cave Croatia, 700 BC
mtDNA: HV0e
Y-DNA: J2b2a1a1a1b2 (PH1601)
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 52)
2 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 17.39 cM
Largest chain: 225 SNPs / 12.91 cM

I14465, Iron Age Vekerzug Komarno Slovakia, 575 BC
mtDNA: U5a2b1b
Y-DNA: E1b1b1a1b1 (L618)
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 8)
5 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 47.0 cM
Largest chain: 188 SNPs / 16.38 cM

ORD014, Daunian Herdonia Apulian Foggia Italy, 500 BC
mtDNA: I5a2+16086C
Y-DNA: J2b2a1 (L283)
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 8)
14 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 141.85 cM
Largest chain: 178 SNPs / 14.31 cM

R1287, Late Medieval Cancelleria Basilica, 1429 AD
mtDNA: T2b44b
Y-DNA: R1b1a1b1a1a2b (PF6570/S28/U152)
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 59)
4 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 56.58 cM
Largest chain: 146 SNPs / 31.6 cM

I15515, Late Roman Empire Viminacium Serbia Pirivoj Necropolis, 225 AD
mtDNA: K1a3a
Y-DNA: R1b1a1b1b (CTS1078/Z2103)
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 3)
1 SNP chain (min. 60 SNPs) / 28.85 cM
Largest chain: 138 SNPs / 28.85 cM

ETR006, Medieval Chiusi Siena Italy, 830 AD
mtDNA: H1e
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 2)
1 SNP chain (min. 60 SNPs) / 48.89 cM
Largest chain: 137 SNPs / 48.89 cM

G12_01d , Imperial Roman Ovilava Germanic Grave Double Burial Wels Austria 350 AD
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 5)
5 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 89.01 cM
Largest chain: 136 SNPs / 21.11 cM

MYG002a, Mycenaean Mygdalia Achaean Greece, 1500 BC
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 17)
4 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 18.97 cM
Largest chain: 136 SNPs / 6.17 cM

TAQ006, Etruscan Tarquinii Italy, 400 BC
mtDNA: HV22
Y-DNA: G2a2b2a1a1b1 (CTS9737/Z1815)
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 13)
2 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 16.29 cM
Largest chain: 132 SNPs / 11.55 cM

I5687, Early Iron Slovenia Dolge Njive Hill Fort, 600 BC
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 65)
3 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 18.4 cM
Largest chain: 131 SNPs / 6.96 cM

XAN051, Minoan Period Crete Chania, 1575 BC
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 14)
3 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 29.84 cM
Largest chain: 130 SNPs / 19.14 cM

XAN030, Minoan Period Crete Chania, 1575 BC
Y-DNA: R1b1a1b2 (PF7558)
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 26)
5 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 35.79 cM
Largest chain: 126 SNPs / 17.85 cM

NEP1, Hun Invader Hungary Budapest XIII Nepfurdo Street 450 AD
mtDNA: H
Y-DNA: E1b1b1a1b1 (L618)
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 15)
7 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 40.55 cM
Largest chain: 125 SNPs / 7.79 cM

R1015, Villanovan Etruscan Italy VGG, 850 BC
mtDNA: K1a4
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 48)
2 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 38.16 cM
Largest chain: 123 SNPs / 33.39 cM

UKR121, Iron Age Forest Steppes Ukraine Poltava Chernyakhiv, 229 AD
mtDNA: H1
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 23)
5 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 32.05 cM
Largest chain: 122 SNPs / 17.98 cM

I16254, Ancient Illyrian Albania Cinamak Kukes District, 500 BC
mtDNA: T2b23
Y-DNA: J2b2a1 (L283)
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 6)
1 SNP chain (min. 60 SNPs) / 15.87 cM
Largest chain: 117 SNPs / 15.87 cM

I15494, Late Roman Empire Viminacium Serbia Pirivoj Necropolis 225 AD
mtDNA: H5a2
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 7)
2 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 19.38 cM
Largest chain: 115 SNPs / 12.32 cM

MYG002, Mycenaean Mygdalia Achaean Greece, 1500 BC
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 8)
2 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 29.97 cM
Largest chain: 115 SNPs / 15.84 cM

PF24, Post Imperial Roman Italy Pesaro Adriatic, 600 AD
mtDNA: D2a'b
Shared DNA: (Sample Quality: 22)
7 SNP chains (min. 60 SNPs) / 25.88 cM
Largest chain: 111 SNPs / 6.94 cM

Мерси. Ами... от тия данни не изглежда като да имат пряко отношение към нас. Иначе автозомно явно са отместени малко на север от българските им съвременници.

Така не се прави PCA

expeler написа: ↑07 Авг 2025, 13:48 Така не се прави PCA

Е, хубаво. Направи я, както трябва да се направи и дай да я видим.

Или, ако нямаш техническа възможност, просто кажи какво точно не ти харесва.

expeler написа: ↑07 Авг 2025, 13:48 Така не се прави PCA

Кухулин не ги прави тези PCA . Той ползва на готово Г25 и само ги визуализира.

Tantin написа: ↑07 Авг 2025, 23:36 Кухулин не ги прави тези PCA . Той ползва на готово Г25 и само ги визуализира.

Не знам какво има предвид уважаемият expeler. Ако има предвид, че Г25 не прави идеални ПСА, веднага се съгласявам. Така е. На практика много рядко се правят идеални ПСА, защото водят до определени трудности. 99% са псевдоПСА. Г25 също е псевдоПСА. Но ако се пипа внимателно и с разбиране, върши работа.

Точно този аспект го обсъждахме с теб доста задълбочено, ако не се лъжа. Преди около две години.

Кухулин 2.0 написа: ↑08 Авг 2025, 04:34

Tantin написа: ↑07 Авг 2025, 23:36 Кухулин не ги прави тези PCA . Той ползва на готово Г25 и само ги визуализира.

Не знам какво има предвид уважаемият expeler. Ако има предвид, че Г25 не прави идеални ПСА, веднага се съгласявам. Така е. На практика много рядко се правят идеални ПСА, защото водят до определени трудности. 99% са псевдоПСА. Г25 също е псевдоПСА. Но ако се пипа внимателно и с разбиране, върши работа.

Точно този аспект го обсъждахме с теб доста задълбочено, ако не се лъжа. Преди около две години.

Вероятно е имал предвид да се генерират нови ПСА данни директно от базата данни (плинк или айгенстрат формат). И тогава се получават стандартните картинки най-вече с първите 2 основни компоненти. Докато ние търсим и по допълнителните компоненти и правим извадка от някой забутан ъгъл от графиките, там дето да речем са се позиционирали интересуващите ни алани или славяни.

Черняховци приличат повече на късни сармати от Унгария.

И ако извадим старите книжки за държавата на Херманарих, т. е. черняховците, там ще пише, че готите покорили сарматски племена в черноморските степи. Т. е. "държавата" им е хетерогенна. И вероятно правилно ще е "част от черняховските са като панонски сармати".

Ето и малко славяни.

expeler написа: ↑09 Авг 2025, 13:31 Ето и малко славяни.

Това си е стандартния модел с 3-те компонента предложени още на времето от Лазаридис.
Да ги припомним компонентите: WHG, EEF , CHG.
Източните ловци EHG в схемата на Лазаридис дори не се разглеждат като отделен компонент, а по-скоро междинен .